Karen Hughes was a key counselor to President George W. Bush during his campaign and presidency. She was born in France, lived in Panama, grew up in Dallas, and has traveled the world representing the United States. Karen has had an incredible career, but she is most proud of the titles wife, mother, and grandmother. She shares how she balances it all and finds unique ways to put family first.
00:01 Andrew Kaufmann: On the Strategerist today, as our co-host, we have Hannah Abney, the Vice President of External Affairs joining us again. Hannah, thank you for doing this.
Hannah Abney: Thank you, Andrew.
AK: And our guest is the great Karen Hughes, who the New York Times famously said, "The rule of thumb in any White House is that nobody is indispensable except the President." But Karen Hughes has come as close to that description as any recent presidential aide. Karen, what do you think of that?
Karen Hughes: [chuckle] Well, it's interesting. I think that was said the day or two after I announced that I was leaving the White House, so I remember thinking how ironic it took me announcing I'm leaving for the New York Times to finally say something nice about me. [chuckle] But part of that was, I agree that no one is indispensable and it just was so different from the way that we operated in President Bush's White House and when he was governor of Texas, because it was so much a team environment, it was really not about any individual. It was about a team of people, who were there to serve the president. And that's how I felt when I left and I told the reporters in the press room. They were like, "Well, but you're leaving." And I said, "Well, but there are great people here who can continue to do the work. Dan Bartlett, Mary Matalin, and Tucker Eskew and we had a great team in place. And they said, "But you're the leader of the team." And I said, "No, the President's the leader of the team. And he's staying so." [chuckle]
AK: He's not doing anywhere.
KH: He's not going anywhere.
HA: Well, thank you for being here. Welcome back to the Bush Center and welcome back to SMU.
KH: Thank you. It's always great to be here. Always great to see the great things happening at my alma mater.
HA: Yes it is, it really is. Karen, you've had a remarkable career. You've been a journalist. You've been a trusted aide and the Executive Director of the Texas Republican Party, you've been President Bush's communications guru as you talked about in the White House, but also when he was the Governor of Texas. You were Under Secretary of State for Public Diplomacy, the Global Vice Chair of Burson-Marsteller is your current gig, and of course most important to you, probably is you're mom and a...
KH: And a grandmother now.
HA: And a grandmother and a wife. And really fortunately for us at the Bush Center, an incredibly trusted advisor, member of our advisory committees and a continuous advocate for women around the world. So how have you had the time to do it all?
KH: Well, you know, it's interesting when people ask me now about balance, I'm not sure there's such a thing as balance. What I say to women and men today is that you can have both a career and a family. You'll have to make choices along the way, but you don't have to choose one or the other, and at different times in your life, one may have to be more important than the other. And so I made the decision that I had to leave the White House when I realized that I was no longer relevant to my family and I was missing a very important time, I thought, in my son's life. But I also was able to have wonderful experiences, and when he went to college, I went back to the State Department and had a great experience there in a very challenging and interesting role representing our country with foreign publics across the world.
KH: And so, I feel looking back, I was able to bring my son with me on the presidential campaign. I will never forget asking President Bush about that.
AK: How old was he then?
KH: He was 13, and it was born out of his interest during Christmas break during one of the days off school, he came with me to New Hampshire, and he loved it and he was fascinated by it. And so that, sort of, started the seed of an idea. And then he came to New Hampshire during the actual election and spent a couple days there. And one day in the spring, I went to President Bush and said, "What would you think about me taking Robert out of school this fall and having him travel with us?" And I think most leaders, if one of their key people came to them and said, "We're in the midst of this really intense presidential campaign, how about I bring my kid along?" Most of them would have said, "No way." To President Bush's credit, he looked at me and said, "That's a great idea." And my son told me... He's now 32, a lawyer in Houston, and he told me not too long ago that whenever a day goes by that he doesn't think of something he learned during that great experience of traveling on the presidential campaign. And he did everything from participate in debate, preparation, to traveling on the road with some bus tours, and watched President... I'm so grateful that he was able to see President Bush's leadership first hand. And I feel that's been a big part of developing him.
KH: And so I've been able to have both wonderful career experiences and wonderful family experiences. And so I would encourage everyone: You can do it, it'll be hard some time and you'll have to make choices sometime. There were times when I had to step back on one or the other, but you don't have to choose one or the other.
AK: Yeah, you had a great line in your book about how you felt when your son wanted to make some brownies with you and you didn't have time.
KH: I was too tired to make brownies, and I was like, "What does that say about my life? Something needs to change here." [chuckle]
HA: I think it's also so fascinating that it doesn't have to be finite. I think when we talk about work-life balance, I think particularly with women, 'cause I don't think we have this conversation as often with men, but when we talk about work-life balance, which I agree with you, I'm not sure that there is a balance. We talk about it like you can either be a mom or you can have a career. And I think you've done a really interesting job of having both, and also even when you left the White House, you weren't totally gone, you were still helping, you were still informing even when you were in Texas.
KH: Well, I promised President Bush when I left that I would stay in... That was the first thing he said to me when I told him that... I remember saying, "Mr President, I think the world of you but I have to move my family home to Texas." And you can imagine, again, he's the hardest job in the world, the highest pressure imaginable, one of his key people is telling him, I'm leaving. And he turned to me, and he looked, and he said, "Will you stay involved?" And it was the nicest thing he could have said. And I said, "Of course, I'll stay involved." And I told him that I would not only stay involved but that I would come back and travel with him during his 2004 re-election campaign because that's a model we had established when he first ran for governor. I went to work for him. And two things: The first day I worked for him, I'd been the Executive Director of the Republican party, and so I was in the headquarters and I was getting all these calls about George Bush in his positions, and I realized I didn't know him well enough to speak for him. So I told the campaign manager, I need to go on the road with then George Bush because he hadn't been elected to anything yet, and to get to know him better.
KH: And so I went on the road with him, and we had a wonderful time, and I realized how much I believed in him and got to know him and we called it the campaign of joy because we had... It was crazy. My pager was always going off, it was always bad news, but we were running for all the right reason and against all the odds. And so, we forged a great friendship there and that's how I sort of got to know him, was over the course of that campaign. And that's how I realized that I could learn to speak for him, was by being with him. But the second part of that is, I also learned that you really drive what I call the 'offense of the campaign' from the road. When you're at the headquarters, you're are sort of naturally on defense, you're responding to whatever the incoming questions are that you may not wanna answer.
KH: But on the road, you're with the candidate, you can take advantage of opportunities, you can see a moment when the candidate could speak out and make news. And so I promised him when I left, that I would come back in 2004 and travel with him on the re-election campaign, and I did, which was a wonderful experience too.
AK: It's been a while since you've been on the road with him, and in your book Ten Minutes from Normal, you talk about some of those experiences on the road. Are there any memories now, looking back, that really stand out?
KH: I remember visiting faith-based programs across the country, where people were just... This one woman who washed the feet of the homeless, I think it was in Minneapolis, and just seeing what Americans were doing to love their neighbors in need. And President Bush always talked about the armies of compassion, that the government could hand out money but it couldn't put hope in your heart or a sense of purpose in our lives. And during the campaign, I remember witnessing that first-hand, and then later at the State Department, I saw it around the world. Where Americans were giving of themselves to help other people have a better life. And it was very inspiring.
HA: To that point. You helped President Bush obviously coin the phrase "compassionate conservatism", which is I think a perfect articulation of the kind of leader he is and the kind of president he was.
KH: It actually grew out of an interview, if you wanna hear the story? It grew out of an interview.
HA: Did it really?
AK: Oh yeah.
KH: There was an international reporter, I think he was from Europe, who was in President Bush's Office and he was pressing him about his political philosophy, and President Bush said, "Well, I'm a conservative." And the reporter said, "Well, but when you talk about single moms making ends meet, and when you talk about parents wanting to bring their children to a better life, and about children about reading being the new right for children, you don't sound like a conservative." And President Bush looked at him and said, "Well, then call me a Conservative with a heart."
KH: And so we turned that into compassionate conservative, and I think it really does describe his philosophy, and his optimism and his concern for people. And he always felt that the government should be limited, but the government also had a role. Because it could do certain things that would help. But others, such as those armies of compassion, had an important role as well.
HA: Well, it's something we think is so important here at the Bush Center, we try to spend a lot of time talking about it. I think some people feel like maybe we've lost a little bit of that compassion as a country. It's not about politics, it's not about policy, but that perhaps in an age of where we're able to sort of hide behind a computer a lot of times, that maybe we've lost a little bit of that compassion. What do you think about that?
KH: Well, I think, I say that we drive into our automatic door garages and we shut the door, and we don't get to see our neighbors as much, and we send emails rather than talking face-to-face. And so, I do think that's... I think that's something we need to think about. Technology has improved our lives in so many ways. I'll never forget the first time I was able to edit a presidential speech on my device from the dressing room of a department store, where I was trying on clothes. And otherwise I would have had to drop everything, and go back to work, go to the office, go to the White House. And I remember the freedom I felt when that happened. So technology has been very liberating, but I also think we need to make sure that we don't use it to replace our human connections, that we don't spend hours on social media on our phones as opposed to talking with our next door neighbor or face-to-face spending time with our families.
HA: Yeah, I think you're right. Ironically, I saw something on Instagram last night that said, "What if we just all put our phones in a box and shipped it off into outer space, and then had to re-introduce ourselves to each other." And I thought that's such a great idea and then I realized, "Oh, you ding dong, on you're on Instagram.
AK: And you'd never know where to meet your friends for dinner.
HA: That's true.
KH: That's so important for our children too, I think about that a lot, I've got friends with young children. And you have screens are fascinating and the pictures are so absorbing, but we also want kids to play, and throw the ball, and run around a playground, and swing on the swings, and spend time outdoors.
HA: Yeah, as the mother of boys, we know they have to do that to do that.
KH: They have to do that exactly.
AK: Get the wiggles out, is that what they say?
HA: Yeah, I think so.
AK: You've talked a bit about President Bush and his compassionate side, what about President Bush as a leader?
KH: I learned so much about leadership from him. In fact, my colleague, Margaret Spellings, the former Secretary of Education, I think she's the one who coined the phrase that we're proud graduates of the George W. Bush School of leadership and management because people forget he is our nation's first MBA President, and he really is a very good leader. And I'll tell you a few things that stand out to me. One is that he always based his decisions on very clear principles, and I learned what that did to empower a team. So for example, he had four principles that he really applied to everything: Limited government, local control, strong families, and individual responsibility. And I learned that I could predict 99% at the time, what he would say about an issue based on those principles. So for example, a reporter would call me and say, "The State Board of Education wants to mandate a list of textbooks for Texas public schools."
KH: Without even asking, I would know that Governor Bush wouldn't agree with that because he believed local school boards should make those decisions for local schools because he believed in local control. And so by basing his decisions on those clear principles, he really empowered everyone who worked for him to be a force extender for him and to really do their jobs, and gave us a lot of latitude and freedom in which to operate. The second thing I'll say is the power of his personal example. And I'll give you two things that have really stuck with me. When I first went to work for him, I learned what a stickler he was for being on time. And you all have probably experienced it now, if...
AK: Very much.
KH: If he says be somewhere at 9 o'clock, if you're not there by quarter of nine, you might get left behind. And so, I remember one asking him, "President Bush, why are you so obsessed with being on time?" And he said three words. He looked at me as if I had kind of lost my mind and he said, "Late is rude." And I can't tell you how many people, when we got to the White House, from the drivers in the motorcade to the house staff to the people who worked in the mess, told me how much they appreciated him being on time. And I realized that it was a very small example that showed his respect for other people's time, but it also set a larger standard.
KH: That he expected a disciplined environment where things would be done in an efficient and punctual and disciplined way. A bigger example is, ever since I worked for him, he had said that if you're a mom or dad, that's your number one responsibility in life. And that really freed me to be able to make decisions like to be able choose to leave the White House in a very busy, complicated, difficult time and be confident that I would still be able to advise him from afar. He also was a great builder of teams, and I mentioned that earlier, but I remember our very first staff meeting after he'd been elected Governor. The morning after, he wanted us to have an ethics briefing to know everything we were supposed to do and not do, and... And he looked at all of the senior people he had assembled and he said, "I want you all to return each other's phone calls first."
KH: And by that I think he meant: I want you to confer with each other. I want it to be a consultative process. I don't want any in-runs here. And then he went on to demonstrate that in very real way. So someone who was new to the team, who had joined after the campaign, went into him early in the legislative session to talk to him about a budget proposal. And Governor Bush looked at him and said, "Well, what does Karen think about that?" And the individual said, "Well, she is at a field... I don't know, she's at a field trip at her son's school."
KH: And Governor Bush looked at him and said, "Well, that's what cell phones are for." In other words, I want you all consult with each other before you come to me. And that was a clear signal that he wasn't gonna allow any in-runs or... Some bosses, if you're not at the office, you get cut out of decisions. That was not at all the way he operated. He had a team, he believed in his team. We were free to disagree with each other, but he wanted us to talk with each other first and then come to him and tell him we either agree or we don't agree, and here's the decision you need to make.
HA: I love that, I think that's really great. So, you know, switching gears a little bit to the Bush Institute. Not to toot our own horn but you know we're strong advocates for freedom and democracy here.
KH: Absolutely.
HA: And you said in your book that a lot of what you learned about freedom, you learned as a child in Panama, which I thought was really interesting. And of course growing up, you lived... You were born in France and then lived in Panama with your family. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that. I thought that was a really interesting perspective.
KH: Well, I just remember my dad was Army officer and had civilian roles actually in Panama in the Canal Zone, when we still operated the Canal, when we ran the Panama Canal Zone, that we no longer do. But back in the 70s, we did. And he was in civilian roles there. He was the Lieutenant governor and then ultimately the governor of the Panama Canal Zone, which meant he was responsible for all the employees that... And also the operation of the canal. And I just remember driving into the interior and having checkpoints, and feeling intimidated by that. And so I think some of that impression as a little girl... Panama had, at different times, democracy and at different times, sort of more dictatorial governments.
KH: And so, just witnessing that. And I remember a very powerful impression left by a young housekeeper, who worked at our house, and she was so excited about a political candidate who was running for office, and she thought that it really meant more freedom for her country and a better life for herself and her family. And I guess, I realized first-hand the power of people in a democratic election, opportunity to really enact change that was meaningful for them. And so I remember her talking about that and how exciting that was.
HA: How did you see similar examples of that later as when you were working at the State Department, you were sort of traveling around the world to countries that were very oppressive, places like Afghanistan where women didn't have as much freedom as men did and they were earning it slowly. How did you...
KH: I'll never forget being in a garden in Afghanistan with women who were working in the garden thanks to the US government because they hadn't been able to work during the long years of the Taliban. And then one of the things the US government did was try to employ women as we were working to rebuild things there, and the women had their burkas on, and they were all working in the garden, and all of sudden I looked up and they were all flocking to me.
KH: They all wanted to touch me because they couldn't believe that a woman was in a foreign country representing her country and it was just such a powerful moment. And then, of course, I had opportunities across the world to see lots of different societies and societies where women were free to participate and societies where women were not free to do things like drive or participate. I remember being asked in Saudi Arabia at a Women's university, why is driving such a big deal? And I said, "Well, I understand different cultures are different... " Of course, the press didn't repeat that part, but... "But as an American woman, my ability to drive is an important part of my freedom. I'm able to take my child to school, I'm able to get myself to work, I'm able to go to the grocery store. And so my freedom to move is an important part of my personal freedom in my own country." And I'd actually talked to the leader of the school, who had encouraged me to say that ahead of time.
KH: The press was very critical of the fact. It was really interesting to watch the very liberal editorial pages in some of our US newspapers criticize the idea that an American official would suggest that greater personal freedom was a good thing. And of course now, now that some people in Saudi have actually spoken up about that, maybe some of those reporters now think it's a better idea.
HA: They feel differently.
KH: Than they used to. But I remember Tanja Ranski... One of my proud things when Tanja Ranski sent me a copy of his book and said that I could be a powerful voice for freedom, and I thought that was... That was just a... That made up for all the negatives editorial covers that I got.
HA: I think it's a brave thing that you said and an important thing that you said because I think in the United States sometimes we forget the little things. I remember when we had the first group of women come for our Women's Initiative Fellowship Program, and they came from Egypt, and they went over to Genesis Women Shelter and met with Jan Langbein, who heads that up and has saved tons of women's lives, children's lives actually, from abusive relationships. And one of the women said to Jan, "I can't believe you have this. We don't have anything in our country that protects women from abusive relationships." And in the United States, we just kind of think, "Of course, in every community there'd be a women shelter." So I think it's important that we talk about it.
KH: Well and we learned that Mrs. Bush traveled to the Middle East on a breast cancer initiative that we were working on, and literally women were dying there because they didn't have resources and because nobody talked about it. And because they... They really didn't have the... They didn't know. And so we were able to share some of that knowledge and encourage them to talk about a subject that was basically taboo. And as a result, women were losing their lives because they weren't going for early check-ups and they weren't getting treatment before it was too late.
HA: Right. That's really important.
AK: Well, we spent a lot of time talking about your time in the Bush administration, but I think we'd be remiss if we didn't talk a little bit about your current role as Vice-Chair at Burson-Marsteller and where you're trying to communicate in a really crowded news environment right now. What advice would you have to people that want to be heard in this day and age?
KH: It's so much more complicated. I can't even imagine. I thought my life at the White House was very difficult, and that was before Twitter. [laughter] So, I can't even imagine what it's like these days, but it's interesting. I started my career in communications as a television reporter back in the '70s here in Dallas, Fort Worth. Back then, most people got their news from local newspapers and local television stations, and the local newspapers were really important because the headlines in the local newspapers would drive off in the TV coverage. And so the TV would look at it that night and that's what they would send their reporters out to cover that day. The headlines are still important today, but for entirely different reasons. It's often the only thing that's re-tweeted, and so, the only news that people sometimes see... So over the course of my career, the communications landscape has just changed so fundamentally, but I do think my fundamental principles have stayed the same. So I have what I call the 5 Cs of effective communication.
KH: Clarity, you have to be clear. Conviction, people have to know that you mean what you say. Compassion, and by that I mean make your message relevant to people's lives. And then finally, the final two go together, Consistency and Credibility. You have to say it over and over again and the messenger has to be credible. And the importance of saying it over and over again, I think can't be understated. Presidential campaign is really a series of waking up every day and figuring out new ways to say the same old things because you don't change the reasons you're running for president every day. You have the same reasons, but you have to wake up and communicate them in the context of that day news environment and in the context of whatever is happening in the campaign that day. And so that's what I do for my clients now, I work with a lot of big companies and it's a lot of fun. It's interesting to help them. Many of them are trying to step up and be responsible corporate citizens and communicate in ways that are helpful at a time when our society is very increasingly politically divided. And so it's a very gratifying thing to be doing.
AK: Well, we've gotta get you back to the Presidential Leadership Scholars session that you're gonna be speaking out here today. But before we let you go, we tend to ask our guest one of two questions that's a little bit on the fun side but what we hope doesn't stumble you 'cause we've had a few people say, "Oh man, I don't know. I have no idea." So we'll throw this one out at you. What are we as a nation not talking enough about that we should be talking about?
KH: Oh golly, we're talking about a lot of things, right? I don't know that it's so much that we're not talking about it as maybe we're not taking it seriously or urgently enough. And I think that is preparing our kids for tomorrow. And people talk about it, I just don't know if we're taking the kind of comprehensive action. I know here at the Bush Institute you're working on education initiatives, but I don't know if we're taking the kind of urgency with which we need to address a situation where in 20 years, a lot of our kids aren't gonna have the skills for the jobs that we're going to have.
HA: Absolutely.
AK: Jobs are changing fast.
KH: They are. And I see it already. I mean already employers tell me this, we can't hire the skills we need... We need better skills, but I don't know if we're being urgent enough about addressing what it's going to take to really accomplish the dramatic changes that we need to make sure that our kids have that opportunity. That's the foundation of this country. I grew up in a family that my mom and dad always told me, "You could be anything you want to be as long as you're willing to work hard to achieve it." My mom had an exception that she said she didn't think I could be president because I'd been born overseas in Paris, France, of course. Now we know that's really not true. [laughter] If you're born of American parents, you can apparently be the president. My mom didn't think so, but I could be anything else that I wanted to be as long as I was willing to work hard and achieve it. And I'm worried that the same won't be true for our kids if we don't get their education right.
HA: Especially all kids.
KH: Exactly.
HA: Kids who look all different ways and have all different socio-economic experiences.
KH: Exactly, exactly.
AK: Well, Karen, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to do this. I know we're eating into your lunch hour a little bit, so thank you so much.
KH: Well, thank you. It was great to be here. I enjoyed it very much.
HA: Thank you.
KH: Thank you.